What inconveniencies can ensue from such liberties as this, I am not able to discover; and, as all the orders of the house are, doubtless, made for more easy and expeditious despatch, if an order be contrary to this end, it ought to be abrogated for the reasons for which others are observed.
The confidence with which this petition was presented, will not suffer us to imagine that the person who offered it fears that it can suffer by a close examination; and I suppose, though he has spoken so warmly in favour of it, without perusing, he does not expect that others should with equal confidence admit—
Sir John BARNARD observing that sir Robert WALPOLE leaned forward towards the table, to read the petition as it lay, rose, and said:—Sir, I rise once more to demand the observation of the orders of the house, and to hinder the right honourable gentleman from doing by stratagem, what he did more openly and honestly before.
It was to little purpose that he laid down the petition, if he placed it within reach of his inspection? for I was only desirous, sir, to hinder him from reading, and was far from suspecting that he would take it away. I insist, that henceforward, he obey the rules of this assembly, with his eyes as well as with his hands, and take no advantage of his seat, which may enable him to perplex the question in debate.
Then the PRESIDENT spoke thus:—Sir, it is, undoubtedly, required by the orders of the house, that the petitions should lie upon the table; and that any member, who is desirous of any farther satisfaction, should move that they be read by the clerk, that every member may have the same opportunity of understanding and considering them; and that no one may be excluded from information, by the curiosity or delays of another. But the importance of this affair seems not to be so very great as to require a rigorous observance of the rules; and it were to be wished, for the ease and expedition of our deliberations, that gentlemen would rather yield points of indifference to one another, than insist so warmly on circumstances of a trivial nature.
Sir Robert WALPOLE then desired that the clerk might read the petition, which being immediately done, he proceeded in the following manner:—
Sir, having sat above forty years in this assembly, and never been called to order before, I was somewhat disconcerted by a censure so new and unexpected, and, in my opinion, undeserved. So that I am somewhat at a loss, with regard to the train of arguments which I had formed, and which I will now endeavour to recover. Yet I cannot but remark, that those gentlemen who are so solicitous for order in others, ought, themselves, invariably to observe it; and that if I have once given an unhappy precedent of violating the rules of this house, I have, in some measure, atoned for my inadvertence, by a patient attention to reproof, and a ready submission to authority.
I hope, sir, I may claim some indulgence from the motive of my offence, which was only a desire of accuracy, and an apprehension that I might, by mistaking or forgetting some passages in the petition, lose my own time, and interrupt the proceedings of the house to no purpose.
But having now, according to order, heard the petition, and found no reason to alter my opinion, I shall endeavour to convince the house that it ought not to be granted.
The petition, sir, is so far from bearing any particular relation to the clause now before us, that it does not, in any part, mention the expedient proposed in it, but contains a general declaration of discontent, suspicion, apprehensions of dangerous proceedings, and dislike of our proceedings; insinuations, sir, by no means consistent with the reverence due to this assembly, and which the nature of civil government requires always to be paid to the legislative power.
To suspect any man, sir, in common life, is in some degree to detract from his reputation, which must suffer in proportion to the supposed wisdom and integrity of him who declares his suspicion. To suspect the conduct of this senate, is to invalidate their decisions, and subject them to contempt and opposition.
Such, and such only, appears to be the tendency of the petition which has now been read; a petition, sir, very unskilfully drawn, if it was intended against the clause under our consideration, for it has not a single period or expression that does not equally regard all the other clauses.
If any particular objection is made, or any single grievance more distinctly pointed at, it is the practice of impresses, a hardship, I own, peculiar to the sailors; but it must be observed that it is a practice established by immemorial custom, and a train of precedents not to be numbered; and it is well known that the whole common law of this nation is nothing more than custom, of which the beginning cannot be traced.
Impresses, sir, have in all ages been issued out by virtue of the imperial prerogative, and have in all ages been obeyed; and if this exertion of the authority had been considered as a method of severity not compensated by the benefits which it produces, we cannot imagine but former senates, amidst all their ardour for liberty, all their tenderness for the people, and all their abhorrence of the power of the crown, would have obviated it by some law, at those times when nothing could have been refused them.
The proper time for new schemes and long deliberations, for amending our constitution, and removing inveterate grievances, are the days of prosperity and safety, when no immediate danger presses upon us, nor any publick calamity appears to threaten us; but when war is declared, when we are engaged in open hostilities against one nation, and expect to be speedily attacked by another, we are not to try experiments, but apply to dangerous evils those remedies, which, though disagreeable, we know to be efficacious.
And though, sir, the petitioners have been more particular, I cannot discover the reasonableness of hearing them by their council; for to what purpose are the lawyers to be introduced? Not to instruct us by their learning, for their employment is to understand the laws that have been already made, and support the practices which they find established. But the question before us relates not to the past but the future, nor are we now to examine what has been done in former ages, but what it will become us to establish on the present occasion; a subject of inquiry on which this house can expect very little information from the professors of the law?
Perhaps the petitioners expect from their counsel, that they should display the fecundity of their imagination, and the elegance of their language; that they should amuse us with the illusions of oratory, dazzle us with bright ideas, affect us with strong representations, and lull us with harmonious periods; but if it be only intended that just facts and valid arguments should be laid before us, they will be received without the decorations of the bar. For this end, sir, it would have been sufficient had the merchants informed their representatives of the methods which they have to propose; for the abilities of the gentlemen whom the city has deputed to this assembly, are well known to be such as stand in need of no assistance from occasional orators. Nor can it be expected that any men will be found more capable of understanding the arguments of the merchants, or better qualified to lay them before the senate.
That every petitioner has, except on money bills, a right to be heard, is undoubtedly true; but it is no less evident that this right is limited to a certain time, and that on this occasion the proper time is elapsed. Justice is due both to individuals and to the nation; if petitions may at any time be offered, and are, whenever offered, to be heard, a small body of men might, by unseasonable and importunate petitions, retard any occasional law, till it should become unnecessary.
Petitions, sir, are to be offered when a new bill is brought into the house, that all useful information may be obtained; but when it has passed through the examination of the committees, has been approved by the collective wisdom of the senate, and requires only a formal ratification to give it the force of a law, it is neither usual nor decent to offer petitions, or declare any dislike of what the senate has admitted.
We are not, when we have proceeded thus far, to suffer pleaders to examine our conduct, or vary our determinations, according to the opinions of those whom we ought to believe less acquainted with the question than ourselves. Should we once be reduced to ask advice, and submit to dictators, what would be the reputation of this assembly in foreign courts, or in our own country? What could be expected, but that our enemies of every kind would endeavour to regulate our determinations by bribing our instructers.
Nor can I think it necessary that lawyers should be employed in laying before us any scheme which the merchants may propose, for supplying the defects, and redressing the inconveniencies, of the laws by which sailors are at present levied for the royal navy; for how should lawyers be more qualified than other men, to explain the particular advantages of such expedients, or to answer any objections which may happen to rise?
It is well known that it is not easy for the most happy speaker to impress his notions with the strength with which he conceives them, and yet harder is the task of transmitting imparted knowledge, of conveying to others those sentiments which we have not struck out by our own reflection, nor collected from our own experience, but received merely from the dictates of another.
Yet such must be the information that lawyers can give us, who can only relate what they have implicitly received, and weaken the arguments which they have heard, by an imperfect recital.
Nor do I only oppose the admission of lawyers to our bar, but think the right of the merchants themselves, in the present case, very questionable; for though in general it must be allowed, that every petitioner has a claim to our attention, yet it is to be inquired whether it is likely that the publick happiness is his chief concern, and whether his private interest is not too much affected to suffer him to give impartial evidence, or honest information. Scarcely any law can be made by which some man is not either impoverished, or hindered from growing rich; and we are not to listen to complaints, of which the foundation is so easily discovered, or imagine a law less useful, because those who suffer some immediate inconvenience from it, do not approve it.
The question before us is required, by the present exigence of our affairs, to be speedily decided; and though the merchants have, with great tenderness, compassion, and modesty, condescended to offer us their advice, I think expedition preferable to any information that can reasonably be expected from them, and that as they will suffer, in the first place, by any misconduct of our naval affairs, we shall show more regard to their interest by manning our fleet immediately, than by waiting three or four days for farther instructions.
Mr. SANDYS answered to this effect:—Sir, the merchants of London whether we consider their numbers, their property, their integrity, or their wisdom, are a body of too much importance to be thus contemptuously rejected; rejected when they ask nothing that can be justly denied to the meanest subject of the empire, when they propose to speak on nothing but what their profession enables them to understand.
To no purpose is it urged, that the bill is far advanced, for if we have not proceeded in the right way, we ought to be in more haste to return, in proportion as we have gone farther; nor can I discover why we should expedite, with so much assiduity, measures which are judged ineffectual, by those who know their consequences best, and for whose advantage they are particularly designed.
That we have already spent so much time in considering methods for manning the fleet, is surely one reason why we should endeavour at last to establish such as may be effectual; nor can we hope to succeed without a patient attention to their opinion, who must necessarily be well experienced in naval affairs.
It is surely, therefore, neither prudent nor just to shut out intelligence from our assemblies, and ridicule the good intention of those that offer it, to consult upon the best expedients for encouraging and increasing sailors, and when the merchants offer their scheme, to treat them as saucy, impertinent, idle meddlers, that assume—
Here the ATTORNEY GENERAL called him to order, and spoke after this manner:—Sir, it is not very consistent to press the despatch of business, and to retard it, at the same time, by invidious insinuations, or unjust representations of arguments or expressions: whenever any expression is censured, it ought to be repeated in the same words; for otherwise, does not the animadverter raise the phantom that he encounters? Does he not make the stain, which he endeavours, with so much officious zeal, to wipe away.
That no epithets of contempt or ridicule have, in this debate, been applied to the merchants, nor any violation of decency attempted, it is unnecessary to prove, and, therefore, it is neither regular nor candid to represent any man as aggravating the refusal of their petition with reproaches and insults. But not to dwell longer on this incident, I will take the liberty of reminding the gentleman, that personal invectives are always, at least superfluous, and that the business of the day requires rather arguments than satire.
Mr. SANDYS then spoke as follows:—Sir, I am by no means convinced that the learned gentleman who charges me with irregularity, is better acquainted than myself with the rules and customs of this house, which I have studied with great application, assisted by long experience. I hope, therefore, it will be no inexcusable presumption, if, instead of a tacit submission to his censure, I assert, in my own vindication, that I have not deviated from the established rules of the senate, that I have spoken only in defence of merit insulted, and that I have condemned only such injurious insinuations. I did not, sir, attempt to repeat expressions, as ought not to be heard without reply.
Then the PRESIDENT said:—I believe the gentleman either heard imperfectly, or misunderstood these expressions, which he so warmly condemns, for nothing has been uttered that could justly excite his indignation. My office obliges me on this occasion to remark, that the regard due to the dignity of the house ought to restrain every member from digressions into private satire; for in proportion as we proceed with less decency, our determinations will have less influence.
Mr. PELHAM spoke next, in substance as follows:—Sir, the reputation which the honourable gentleman has acquired by his uncommon knowledge of the usages of the senate, is too well founded to be shaken, nor was any attack upon his character intended, when he was interrupted in the prosecution of his design. To censure any indecent expression, by whomsoever uttered, is, doubtless, consistent with the strictest regularity; nor is it less proper to obviate any misrepresentation which inattention or mistake may produce.
I am far, sir, from thinking that the gentleman's indignation was excited rather by malice than mistake; but mistakes of this kind may produce consequences which cannot be too cautiously avoided. How unwillingly would that gentleman propagate through the nation an opinion that the merchants were insulted in this house, their interest neglected, and their intelligence despised, at a time when no aspersion was thrown upon them, nor any thing intended but tenderness and regard? And yet such had been the representation of this day's debate, which this numerous audience would have conveyed to the populace, had not the mistake been immediately rectified, and the rumour crushed in the birth.
Nothing, sir, can be more injurious to the character of this assembly, by which the people are represented, than to accuse them of treating any class of men with insolence and contempt; and too much diligence cannot be used in obviating a report which cannot be spread in the nation, without giving rise to discontent, clamours, and sedition.
Those who shall be inclined to reject the petition, may, perhaps, act with no less regard to the merchants, and may promote their interest and their security with no less ardour than those who most solicitously labour for its reception: for, if they are not allowed to be heard, it is only because the publick interest requires expedition, and because every delay of our preparations is an injury to trade.
That this is not a proper time for petitions against the bill to be heard, is universally known; and I can discover nothing in the petition that restrains it to this particular clause, which is so far from being specified, that it appears to be the only part of the bill of which they have had no intelligence.
Let the warmest advocates for the petition point out any part of it that relates to this single clause, and I will retract my assertion; but as it appears that there are only general declarations of the inexpediency of the measures proposed, and the pernicious tendency of the methods now in use, what is the petition, but a complaint against the bill, and a request that it should be laid aside.
The practice of impresses, sir, is particularly censured, as severe and oppressive; a charge which, however true, has no relation to this clause, which is intended to promote the voluntary engagement of sailors in the service of the crown; yet it may not be improper to observe, that as the practice of impressing is, in itself, very efficacious, and well adapted to sudden emergencies; as it has been established by a long succession of ages, and is, therefore, become almost a part of our constitution; and as it is at this time necessary to supply the navy with the utmost expedition, it is neither decent nor prudent to complain too loudly against, or to heighten the discontent of the people at a necessary evil.
We have, sir, examined every part of this bill with the attention which the defence of the nation requires; we have softened the rigour of the methods first proposed, and admitted no violence or hardship that is not absolutely necessary, to make the law effectual, which, like every other law, must be executed by force, if it be obstructed or opposed. We have inserted a great number of amendments, proposed by those who are represented as the most anxious guardians of the privileges of the people; and it is not, surely, to no purpose that the great council of the nation has so long and so studiously laboured.
Those who are chosen by the people to represent them, have undoubtedly, sir, some claim as individuals to their confidence and respect; for to imagine that they have committed the great charge of senatorial employments, that they have trusted their liberties and their happiness to those whose integrity they suspect, or whose understandings they despise, is to imagine them much more stupid than they have been represented by those who are censured as their enemies.
But far different is the regard due to the determinations formed by the collective wisdom of the senate; a regard which ought to border upon reverence, and which is scarcely consistent with the least murmur of dissatisfaction.
If we are to hear the present petitioners, is it not probable, that before we have despatched them, we shall be solicited by others, who will then plead the same right, supported by a new precedent? And is it not possible that by one interruption upon another, our measures may be delayed, till they shall be ineffectual?
It seems to me to be of much more importance to defend the merchants than to hear them; and I shall, therefore, think no concessions at this time expedient, which may obstruct the great end of our endeavours, the equipment of the fleet.
Mr. PULTENEY then spoke as follows:—Sir, notwithstanding the art and eloquence with which this grant of the merchants' petition has been opposed, I am not yet able to discover that any thing is asked unreasonable, unprecedented, or inconvenient; and I am confident, that no real objection can have been overlooked by the gentlemen who have spoken against it.
I have spent, sir, thirty-five years of my life in the senate, and know that information has always, upon important questions, been willingly received; and it cannot surely be doubted that the petitioners are best able to inform us of naval business, and to judge what will be the right method of reconciling the sailors to the publick service, and of supplying our fleets without injuring our trade.
Their abilities and importance have been hitherto so generally acknowledged, that no senate has yet refused to attend to their opinion; and surely we ought not to be ambitious of being the first assembly of the representatives of the people, that has refused an audience to the merchants.
With regard to the expedience of delaying the bill at the present conjuncture, he must think very contemptuously of the petitioners, who imagines that they have nothing to offer that will counterbalance a delay of two days, and must entertain an elevated idea of the vigilance and activity of our enemies, enemies never before eminent for expedition, if he believes that they can gain great advantages in so short a time.
The chief reason of the opposition appears, indeed, not to be either the irregularity or inexpediency of hearing them, but the offence which some have received from an irreverent mention of the power of impressing, a power which never can be mentioned without complaint or detestation.
It is not, indeed, impossible that they may intend to represent to the house, how much the sailors are oppressed, how much our commerce is impeded, and how much the power of the nation is exhausted, by this cruel method. They may propose to show that sailors, not having the choice of their voyages, are often hurried through a sudden change of climates, from one extreme to another, and that nothing can be expected from such vicissitudes, but sickness, lameness, and death. They may propose, that to have just arrived from the south may be pleaded as an exemption from an immediate voyage to the north, and that the seaman may have some time to prepare himself for so great an alteration, by a residence of a few months in a temperate climate.
If this should be their intention, it cannot, in my opinion, sir, be called either unreasonable or disrespectful, nor will their allegations be easily disproved.
But it is insinuated, that their grievances are probably such as affect them only as distinct from the rest of the community, and that they have nothing to complain of but a temporary interruption of their private advantage.
I have, indeed, no idea of the private advantage of a legal trader: for unless, sir, we neglect our duty of providing that no commerce shall be carried on to the detriment of the publick, the merchant's profit must be the profit of the nation, and their interests inseparably combined.
It may, however, be possible, that the merchants may, like other men, prefer their immediate to their greater advantage, and may be impatient of a painful remedy, though necessary to prevent a more grievous evil. But let us not censure them by suspicion, and punish them for a crime which it is only possible they may commit; let us, sir, at least have all the certainty that can be obtained, and allow them an audience; let us neither be so positive as not to receive information, nor so rigorous as not to listen to entreaties.
If the merchants have nothing to offer, nothing but complaints, and can propose no better measures than those which they lament, if their arguments should be found to regard only their present interest, and to be formed upon narrow views and private purposes, it will be easy to detect the imposture, and reject it with the indignation it shall deserve; nor will our proceedings be then censured by the nation, which requires not that the merchants should be implicitly believed, though it expects that they should be heard. Let us at least have a convention, though we should not be able to conclude a treaty.
I know not, sir, why we have not taken care to obviate all these difficulties, and to remove the necessity of petitions, debates, searches, and impresses, by the plain and easy method of a voluntary register; by retaining such a number of seamen as may probably be requisite upon sudden emergencies. Would not the nation with more cheerfulness contribute half-pay to those who are daily labouring for the publick good, than to the caterpillars of the land service, that grow old in laziness, and are disabled only by vice?
Let ten thousand men receive daily a small salary, upon condition that they shall be ready, whenever called upon, to engage in the service of the crown, and the difficulty of our naval preparations will be at an end.
That it is necessary to exert ourselves on this occasion, and to strike out some measures for securing the dominion of the ocean, cannot be denied by any one who considers that we have now no other pretensions to maintain; that all our influence on the continent, at whatever expense gained and supported, is now in a manner lost, and only the reputation of our naval strength remains to preserve us from being trampled on and insulted by every power, and from finding Spaniards in every climate.
Sir William YONGE spoke, in substance, as follows:—Sir, the violence and severity of impresses, so often and so pathetically complained of, appears to be now nothing more than a punishment inflicted upon those who neglect or refuse to receive the encouragement offered, with the utmost liberality, by the government, and decline the service of their country from a spirit of avarice, obstinacy, or resentment.
That such men deserve some severities, cannot be doubted, and therefore a law by which no penalty should be enacted, would be imperfect and ineffectual. The observation, sir, of all laws is to be enforced by rewards on one side, and punishments on the other, that every passion may be influenced, and even our weakness made instrumental to the performance of our duty.
In the bill before us no punishment is, indeed, expressly decreed, because the sailors who shall disregard it, are only left to their former hardships, from which those who engage voluntarily in the service of the navy are exempted.
Why so many rewards and so much violence should be necessary to allure or force the sailors into the publick service, I am unable to comprehend: for, excepting the sudden change of climates, which may, doubtless, sometimes bring on distempers, the service of the king has no disadvantages which are not common to that of the merchants.
The wages in the navy are, indeed, less: but then it is to be remembered, that they are certainly paid, and that the sailor is in less danger of losing, by a tempest or a wreck, the whole profits of his voyage; because, if he can preserve his life, he receives his pay. But in trading voyages, the seamen mortgage their wages, as a security for their care, which, if the ship is lost, they are condemned to forfeit.
Thus, sir, the hardships of the navy appear not so great when compared with those of the merchants' service, as they have been hitherto represented; and I doubt not, that if counsellors were to be heard on both sides, the measures taken for supplying the fleet would be found to be reasonable and just.
Sir John BARNARD rose to speak, when Mr. FOX called to order, and proceeded:
Sir, it is well known to be one of the standing and unvariable orders of this house, that no member shall speak twice in a debate on the same question, except when for greater freedom we resolve ourselves into a committee. Upon this question the honourable gentleman has already spoken, and cannot, therefore, be heard again without such a transgression of our orders as must inevitably produce confusion.
Sir John BARNARD spoke thus:—Sir, I know not for what reason the honourable gentleman apprehends any violation of the order of the house; for, as I have not yet spoken upon the present question, I have an undoubted right to be heard, a right which that gentleman cannot take away.
Sir William YONGE next spoke, to this effect:—Sir, I know not by what secret distinction the gentleman supports in his own mind this declaration, which, to the whole house, must appear very difficult to be defended; for we must, before we can admit it, allow our memories to have forsaken us, and our eyes and ears to have been deceived.
Did he not, as soon as the clause before us was read, rise and assert the characters of the petitioners, and their right to the attention of the house? Did he not dwell upon their importance, their abilities, and their integrity; and enforce, with his usual eloquence, every motive to the reception of the petition? How then can he assert that he has not spoken in the present debate, and how can he expect to be heard a second time, since, however his eloquence may please, and his arguments convince, that pleasure and conviction cannot now be obtained, without infringing the standing orders of the house.
Then the PRESIDENT rose, and spoke to this purport: It is not without uneasiness that I see the time of the house, and of the publick, wasted in fruitless cavils and unnecessary controversies. Every gentleman ought now to consider that we are consulting upon no trivial question, and that expedition is not less necessary than accuracy. It cannot be denied, sir, [to sir John BARNARD] that you have already spoken on this question, and that the rules of the house do not allow you to speak a second time.
Sir Robert WALPOLE said:—Sir, I am far from thinking the order of the house so sacred, as that it may not be neglected on some important occasions; and if the gentleman has any thing to urge so momentous, that, in his own opinion, it outweighs the regard due to our rules, I shall willingly consent that he shall be heard.